斯皮爾伯格談冷戰及新片 敵人沒有特定面孔

For his new film, “Bridge of Spies,” the director Steven Spielberg returned to what for him has been an inexhaustible source of inspiration: American history. His hero this time isn’t a totemic national figure, as in his 2012 film, “Lincoln,” but instead is someone whose name is barely known: James Donovan, played by Tom Hanks. A Bronx-born lawyer who defended a vilified Soviet spy, Rudolf Abel (Mark Rylance), during the Cold War’s peak, Mr. Donovan later negotiated to swap Mr. Abel for both the American U-2 spy plane pilot Francis Gary Powers, who had been shot down over the Soviet Union, and an American graduate student who had been detained in East Berlin.

導演史蒂夫·斯皮爾伯格(Steven Spielberg)在《間諜之橋》(Bridge of Spies)中迴歸了對他來說永不枯竭的靈感源泉：美國曆史。這一次，他的主人公不再如2012年的《林肯》(Lincoln)那樣，是一位圖騰般的國民英雄，而是一個名字幾乎不爲世人所知的小人物：詹姆斯·多諾萬(James Donovan)，由湯姆·漢克斯(Tom Hanks)飾演。此人是出生於布朗克斯的律師，在冷戰高潮期間，爲被指控爲蘇聯間諜的魯道夫·阿貝爾（Rudolf Abel，馬克·李朗斯[Mark Rylance] 飾演）擔任辯護律師。多諾萬後來參與協商，用阿貝爾同蘇聯交換在蘇聯上空被擊落的U-2偵察機的飛行員弗朗西斯·加里·鮑爾斯( Francis Gary Powers)，還有一名被東柏林羈押的美國大學生。

Mr. Spielberg — an engaged, thoughtful and kindly presence — sat down in TriBeCa recently to talk about how the post-9/11 world informs his new film, what Hollywood could be doing for women and minorities and why he feels he was born decades too late. Here are excerpts from the conversation:

斯皮爾伯格一直是個忙碌、有思想而友好的人，最近，他在翠貝卡電影節談起後9-11的世界是如何影響了他的新電影，好萊塢能爲女性和少數族裔做些什麼，以及他爲什麼覺得自己晚生了幾十年。下面是經過節選的對話。

Q. Did you see commonalities with “Bridge of Spies” and “Lincoln” in terms of the story lines?

問：就情節而言，你覺得《間諜之橋》和《林肯》有什麼相似之處？

A. Both men are highly principled, and both men basically have a mission. Lincoln’s mission was going to change the way we look at each other, and Donovan’s mission was to basically bring somebody home. In a sense, Lincoln and Donovan are uncompromising figures in history, one completely obscure and the other almost ineffably famous.

答：兩個男主人公都非常有原則，基本上，都有一個使命。林肯的使命是改變我們看待彼此的方式，多諾萬的使命基本上是送某人回家。在某種意義上，林肯和多諾萬都是歷史上毫不妥協的角色，不過一個默默無聞，另一個家喻戶曉。

Donovan was especially resolute in the idea that this man deserves every defense. Is there nostalgia here to a kind of belief and principle? I was thinking of prisoners in Guantánamo. Was that in your mind when you were making the film?

問：多諾萬極度堅持這個男人值得全力爲之辯護。這是對信仰和原則的一種懷舊嗎？我聯想起關塔那摩的囚犯，拍電影的時候，你想到這個問題了嗎？

So many things were in my mind in the contemporary world. Drone missions. Guantánamo Bay. Cyberhacking, because cyberhacking is a form of spying. At the very beginning of technological spycraft in the late ’50s, with the U-2 overflights, our fear was that the Sputnik was a spy satellite, which it turned out of course not to be, and there was also great suspicion and fear of nuclear holocaust. I grew up in that era. The stakes were very, very high. And yet today, there is much more dread and fear of who’s looking over our shoulders. There was a specific enemy, the Soviet Union, in the 1950s and ’60s. Today we don’t know our enemy. The enemy doesn’t have a specific face.

答：關於當代世界，我想過太多問題。無人機轟炸、關塔那摩灣、電腦黑客——因爲電腦黑客也是一種間諜形式。20世紀50年代末，技術間諜手段剛剛興起，U-2飛機可以飛越領空，我們擔心蘇聯人造衛星是間諜衛星，最後發現它根本不是，對核末日的猜疑和恐懼也是甚囂塵上。我成長在那個時代。風險重重。然而如今卻有了愈來愈多的恐懼，擔心別人會嚴密監視我們。五六十年代，蘇聯是明明白白的敵人。如今我們根本不知道自己的敵人是誰。敵人根本就沒有特定的面孔。

For you, is there solace looking at heroic people in history? Is it a comfort compared with what’s happening in the world now?

問：對你來說，歷史上的英雄人物是一種安慰嗎？把歷史和如今的世界對照讓你覺得安心嗎？

Here’s the thing. It’s a little harder today. Donovan could work in tremendous secrecy at a time when there was no social media. Today it’d be a lot harder to find a man that would stand up for his principles and suffer the slings and arrows of the haters on social media. Donovan had it bad: They shot a bullet through the window of his apartment in the late ’50s. Imagine the amount of hurt that would have been brought to bear on Donovan’s family had this entire incident occurred in this day and age.

答：是這樣。如今的歲月有一些艱難。在沒有社交媒體的年代，多諾萬可以在高度保密的狀態下工作。如今的年代，要找到一個既堅持原則，同時又能抵禦社交媒體上的噴子們暴風驟雨的怒罵，實在是難上加難。多諾萬遇到過壞事，50年代末，有人衝着他公寓的窗子開了一槍。想想吧，如果這種事發生在今天，多諾萬的家人要承受多少傷害。

How did you find out about this story?

問：你是怎麼找到這個故事的？

A British playwright named Matt Charman presented me with this incredible story about the spy swap. I’m a big fan of the spy genre. Even though this film was more of an intellectual spy drama, a little more about the art of negotiation and conversation, there was still spycraft that really got me excited. I’m a huge fan of “The Quiller Memorandum,” “The Ipcress File,” The Spy Who Came In From the Cold.” Even “Our Man Flint,” “Dr. No,” and “FromRussia With Love.”

答：一個名叫馬特·查曼(Matt Charman)的英國編劇給我看了這個精彩的交換間諜的故事。我非常迷戀間諜片。雖然這部電影其實主要是部智力間諜情節劇，關於談判與對話藝術的內容更多些，不過其中仍然有些間諜技巧讓我非常興奮。我特別喜歡的間諜片有《諜海羣英會》(The Quiller Memorandum)、《伊普克雷斯檔案》(The Ipcress File)、《柏林諜影》(The Spy Who Came In From the Cold)、就連《弗林特》(Our Man Flint)、《007之諾博士》(Dr. No)、和《007之俄羅斯之戀》(FromRussia With Love)也喜歡。

I’m going to jump out to some general queries. In terms of the film industry, do you feel it’s in a healthy state?

問：我要拋出一些比較泛的問題了。你覺得當今的電影工業處在一個健康狀態嗎？

The film business has always been competitive with television, and in the early age of television, some of the greatest writers worked in television. Paddy Chayefsky, Stirling Silliphant, Rod Serling. Then television became very formulaic. But something has happened in the last seven or eight years. Some of the greatest writing today is for television. Look at series like “Transparent,” “Bloodline,” “Wolf Hall” and “Downton Abbey.” A wonderful series I’m hooked on, “Homeland.”

答：電影工業總在和電視業競爭。在電視的早期歲月，有一些最好的作者爲它服務。比如帕迪·查耶夫斯基(Paddy Chayefsky)、斯特林·西里芬特(Stirling Silliphant)、羅德·瑟林(Rod Serling)。然後電視業開始變得非常俗套。但在過去七八年間，有些事情發生了。如今，有些最好的作者又開始爲電視寫作。看看《透明家庭》(Transparent)、《至親血統》(Bloodline)、《狼廳》(Wolf Hall)、《唐頓莊園》(Downton Abbey)這些電視劇吧。我特別迷戀的一部劇就是《國土安全》(Homeland)。

Television has allowed the audience to take bigger risks on where they’re spending money when they go to the movies. Because if they can get something like that in a movie theater, where that particular story is only playing in a movie theater, it might get more people out to the movies.

電視讓觀衆在花錢去電影院的時候承擔更大的風險。如果他們能在影院看到這樣的東西，如果特定的故事只在影院放映，這樣可能就會吸引愈來愈多的人去看電影了。

So the filmmakers can take more of a risk?

問：所以電影人可以更冒險？

Yes, the studios can take more of a risk and allow filmmakers to tell stories that are self-contained and don’t even promise a sequel. I think television has helped the independent cinema and that the independent cinema has inspired long-form television. This is the second golden age of television, absolutely.

答：是的，電影公司可以更冒險，讓電影人講述更獨立完整的故事，甚至不承諾做續集。我覺得電視對獨立電影有幫助，獨立電影也在啓發長篇電視。這絕對是電視的第二個黃金時代。

Women’s point of view has been a huge topic lately. Do you feel someone in your position has a responsibility to cultivate young women filmmakers?

問：女性視點是最近的重大議題。你覺得處在你位置上的人有責任扶植年輕女性電影人嗎？

I’ve cultivated women in film ever since I decided to make my secretary my producer and form my company, Amblin. I’m much more comfortable in the company of women. I’m talking about women in creative capacities, not administrative. The first movie I ever greenlit for DreamWorks was a film called “The Peacemaker,” and Mimi Leder directed it. Women are very much in executive positions all over the film industry today — the head of Universal, head of Fox 2000. The former head of Sony. What I don’t understand is the lack of diversity and color in the executive ranks of motion-picture companies, and that is something I think we have to look carefully at and have to ask why.

答：自從我成立安培林公司(Amblin)，並且提拔我的祕書當製片人開始，就已經在扶植女性電影人了。女性主持的公司讓我感覺更舒服。我是從她們的創意能力角度，而不是管理能力角度談的。我批准夢工廠拍攝的第一部影片是《末日戒備》(The Peacemaker)，導演是咪咪·萊德(Mimi Leder)。全世界的電影業中都有很多女人擔任高管——環球影業、二十世紀福克斯的主管都是女人，還有索尼的前主管也是女人。我不明白的是，電影公司的管理層裏何以缺乏多樣化，缺少不同人種，我們應該仔細研究，問問爲什麼。

And also director positions. Why do you think that is?

問：還有導演的位置也是這樣，你覺得這是爲什麼？

I think there needs to be an infusion of more women directing and more men and women of color directing.

答：我覺得我們需要讓更多女人來當導演，讓更多非白人男女來當導演。

How do we do that?

問：我們該怎麼做呢？

We do that by continuing to look at movies that everybody is making whether they’re on YouTube or Vine. You have to just be open to it, and you have to search for it. You have to go out to see where the talent is and basically cultivate the talent.

答：我們要做的就是不斷地看電影，不管是在YouTube上的還是Vine上的。你需要非常開放，你要去尋找。你要出去尋覓天才，然後培育天才。

You’ve clarified your comments about superhero movies, which you’ve said will have a finite life span compared with westerns. Are there superhero movies you like?

問：你曾經澄清過自己關於超級英雄電影的觀點，你說與西部片相比，它們的生命期有限。你有喜歡的超級英雄電影嗎？

I wasn’t giving the thumbs down to the genre, ’cause I go to all the movies. My favorite of all the superhero movies are the “Iron Man” movies. I love Tim Burton’s Batman films and then — jump-cut way into the future — everything Chris Nolan has touched in Batman, because of the darkness, of what would motivate a character like that, a very rich character, to do the kind of public service work he does.

答：我並沒有貶低這種類型，因爲我什麼電影都看。我最喜歡的超級英雄電影是《鋼鐵俠》(Iron Man)系列。我喜歡蒂姆·波頓(Tim Burton)的蝙蝠俠電影，還有——現在未來交叉剪輯的方式——還有克里斯·諾蘭(Chris Nolan)在他的蝙蝠俠中體現、運用的，因爲裏面那種黑暗，是這種黑暗，驅動了富有的主角去做那種公共服務工作。

And “Iron Man” because …

問：你喜歡《鋼鐵俠》又是因爲……

There’s a lot of Joseph Campbell in the “Iron Man” movies. We all want to fly. And we know we can’t fly without wings, except in our dreams. I used to dream about flying in a bodysuit, and when “Iron Man” came along, I went: “They wrote this for me. This is my wish fulfillment.”

答：《鋼鐵俠》裏有很多約瑟夫·坎貝爾(Joseph Campbell)式的東西。我們都想飛翔，我們都知道我們沒有翅膀，所以飛不起來，除非是在夢裏。我曾經夢見過穿連體衣就飛起來了，《鋼鐵俠》出來的時候，我想“他們寫的就是我，我的夢想成真了。”

With “E.T.” and “Close Encounters of the Third Kind,” you looked out beyond the world. Now you’re mining history.

問：你在《E.T.外星人》(E.T.)和《第三類接觸》(Close Encounters of the Third Kind)這樣的影片裏拍過了外星世界，現在你又開始研究歷史。

I always said to myself if I ever achieve a success where I can decide what to do independently, I wanted to tell stories that are meaningful to me about people that did great things.

答： 我總是對自己說，如果我成功到可以獨立決定該幹什麼，我最想做的就是講述那些對我有意義的偉人故事。

I also have an imagination — if it sits around too long, I get afraid it’s going to become a little jaded, so I fluctuate between stories based on true events and movies that are much more a product of my overactive imagination. Or at least Roald Dahl’s, which is my next movie, “Big Friendly Giant.” With Mark Rylance playing the big friendly giant.

我還有豐富的想象力——如果它被擱置太久，我擔心它會變得有點厭倦，所以我有時拍真實事件改編的故事，有時根據我活躍的想象力拍攝影片。至少我也要拍個羅爾德·達爾(Roald Dahl)的小說改編的電影吧，我的下一部影片是《友善的巨人》(Big Friendly Giant)，馬克·裏朗斯演那個友善的巨人。

I didn’t know it was Mark Rylance as Abel; he was so deep in the character.

問：我都沒看出阿貝爾是馬克·裏朗斯演的，他深深沉浸在角色裏面了。

Thanks to “Twelfth Night” and “Richard III” [on Broadway], I was able to get a big dose of Mark Rylance a couple of years ago. He was my first choice. Tom [Hanks] has played American figureheads in the past, and he’s very representative of our core values of what we believe to be great American leadership. This was a special assignment for Tom, because he’s badass in this story. He was dogged in his pursuit of justice.

答：幾年前，我在（百老匯的）《第十二夜》(Twelfth Night)和《理查三世》(Richard III)裏看了很多馬克·裏朗斯的表演。他是我的首選。湯姆·漢克斯以前演過很多美國大人物，他非常能代表我們心目中偉大的美國領導力的核心價值。這個角色對於湯姆來說很特別，因爲他是這個故事裏的壞傢伙。在追求正義的過程中，他很固執。

You seem to draw great performances out of people.

問：你似乎很擅長激發演員的演技。

Working with Daniel Day-Lewis brought me up many, many notches. I just dogged Daniel Day-Lewis, and after 10 years he finally said yes to play Abraham Lincoln. It really raised my game. I really believe I did some of my best work on “Lincoln,” principally because of this one actor.

答：和丹尼爾·戴-劉易斯(Daniel Day-Lewis)合作讓我提升了很多層次。我一直追着丹尼爾·戴-劉易斯不放，十年後，他終於答應出演亞伯拉罕·林肯。這真的讓我更加努力。我真的相信《林肯》差不多是我最好的作品，主要都是因爲這個演員。

What is it that he does that caused these new light bulbs to go off?

問：他做了什麼事，啓發了你的新靈感？

You can’t describe it. I try to go back in time to figure out how did Howard Hawks get that performance out of Montgomery Clift and John Wayne in “Red River”?

答：你沒法描述。我試着回到過去，想象霍華德·霍克斯(Howard Hawks)在《紅河》(Red River)裏是怎麼激發蒙哥馬利·克里夫特(Montgomery Clift)和約翰·韋恩(John Wayne)的演技的。

I really feel I was well suited to working 70 years ago. I would have been a good workhorse, under contract and assigned stories, and I would have thrived.

我真的覺得，我更適合在70年前工作。有合同，有指派給我的故事，我會兢兢業業地工作，我也會成功的。

I spend more of my time looking at movies from 70, 60 years ago than I do watching movies that are made now. Clint Eastwood and I are very close friends, and we talk about this all the time. He wishes he could go back and experience what it would have been like to have Darryl Zanuck or Harry Cohn or Louis B. Mayer go through a go-between and hand you your assignment, then you read it and say: “You know something? I hate it, but I can fix it.”

我花了大量時間去看六七十年前的電影，比看現在的電影還要多。克林特·伊斯特伍德(Clint Eastwood)是我的好朋友，我們總是聊這個話題。他希望回到過去，體驗和達利爾·扎努克(Darryl Zanuck)、哈利·科恩(Harry Cohn)和路易·B·梅爾(Louis B. Mayer)一起工作的感覺，他們通過中介，把下一個任務分給你，然後你看了劇本就說，“你知道嗎，我討厭這個，不過我能拍好它。”