與FT共進午餐之愛德華斯諾登(上)
Edward Snowden has rounded on his hosts, attacking the Kremlin’s human rights record and implicating Russia in two of the US government’s latest major security hacks.
愛德華•斯諾登(Edward Snowden)抨擊他目前客居的國家，他批評克里姆林宮的人權記錄，並暗指俄羅斯與近期兩起針對美國政府的重大黑客攻擊事件有瓜葛。
In a Lunch with the FT — carried below — he complained Moscow had gone very far, in ways that are completely unnecessary, costly and corrosive to individual and collective rights and added that his greatest loyalty was still to the US.
在與FT共進午餐（見以下采訪全文）中，他吐槽莫斯科做得太過，採取了完全沒有必要、代價高昂並且損害個人和集體權利的行事方式，並說他依然對美國懷有最大的忠誠。
He described the leak last month of NSA espionage tools, potentially by Russia as an implicit threat to the US government.
在他看來，上個月美國國家安全局(NSA)的間諜工具被泄露一事——可能是俄羅斯所爲——是向美國政府發出的含蓄威脅。
Efforts by hackers called the Shadow Brokers to auction off NSA computer code used to break into foreign networks were an attempt to show Washington how vulnerable it was, he added.
他說，這夥叫做影子經紀人的黑客要將美國國家安全局用於入侵外國網絡的計算機代碼拍賣，其用意是要讓華盛頓看看，這些代碼有多不堪一擊。
Snowden insisted that all dealings with Russian officials were conducted by his lawyer.
斯諾登堅稱，所有與俄羅斯官員之間的交涉都是由他的律師出面進行的。
I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia and that’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.
我和俄羅斯並沒有很多關聯，這是有意的，因爲——儘管這聽起來很瘋狂——我依然計劃着要離開。
Edward Snowden is not the easiest lunch date.
要約斯諾登一起吃個午餐不太容易。
The former National Security Agency operative doesn’t fancy talking in a Moscow restaurant so — via an intermediary — we settle on meeting in my hotel and risk the room service.
這位美國國家安全局的前工作人員不想在莫斯科的哪一家餐廳談話，因此，通過一位中間人，我們決定就在我住的酒店碰面，冒險嘗試一下客房服務。
He will present himself at the agreed time.
他自會在約定的時間露面。
That’s all I need to know.
我只需要知道這一點。
In the end he’s 20 minutes late, dressed casually in black jeans and black V-neck, buttoned-up T-shirt carrying a pair of unbranded dark glasses.
結果斯諾登遲到了20分鐘。他一身休閒打扮，穿着黑色牛仔褲和一件保守的黑色V領T恤，戴着一副沒有品牌logo的墨鏡。
He eyes up the small, dimly lit room 203 of the Golden Apple boutique hotel — half an hour’s gentle stroll from the Kremlin — with the look of a man who has spent too much time in such places.
他打量了一番金蘋果精品酒店(Golden Apple)——從這裏溜達到克里姆林宮需要半小時——狹小昏暗的203號房間，一副在這種地方住過很長時間的樣子。
How does it compare with room 1014 of the Mira Hotel in Hong Kong, where in June 2013 — having shared many of the NSA’s most closely guarded secrets with a few handpicked journalists — Snowden spent a week as the most wanted man in the world?
這個房間和香港美麗華酒店(Mira Hotel)1014號房間比起來怎樣呢？2013年6月他在那個房間裏住了一週，作爲世界頭號通緝犯——在他與挑選的幾名記者分享了美國國家安全局許多最嚴加保守的祕密之後。
A bit smaller, but not dissimilar, he says.
小一點，但也沒多大不同，他說。
The Hong Kong room had a glass bathroom wall here, he adds, pointing to a bland wall featuring an obligatory hotel watercolour.
香港那個房間在這裏有一面浴室的玻璃牆，他指着一面普普通通的牆壁說道，牆上掛着一幅在酒店房間裏常見的水彩畫。
The interior of the Mira hotel room is about to become much better known with the US release next week of Oliver Stone’s biopic about Snowden, which stars Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the whistleblower’s role.
美麗華酒店1014號房間內的佈置將隨着一部影片的上映而更加爲人們所知。奧利弗•斯通(Oliver Stone)執導的斯諾登傳記片於9月16日在美國上映，約瑟夫•戈登-萊維特(Joseph Gordon-Levitt)飾演泄密者斯諾登一角。
Much of the tensest, most claustrophobic action is filmed in a reconstruction of room 1014 built inside a hangar-like studio in Munich.
片中最緊張、最具幽閉恐懼氣氛的鏡頭是在慕尼黑一個飛機庫般的攝影棚內重建的1014號房間裏拍攝的。
During that intense week three years ago, Snowden and two Guardian reporters worked on those first stories disclosing the full capabilities that intelligence agencies can now deploy against populations.
3年前他住在美麗華酒店1014房間的那一週過得相當緊張，因爲他的爆料，兩名《衛報》(Guardian)記者寫出了第一波披露當今情報部門能夠使用在民衆身上的全部監聽能力的報道。
When he revealed himself as the source, he was acclaimed as a hero by some — others recommended the electric chair.
在他披露自己是消息來源後，一些人將他譽爲英雄，另外一些人提出應該讓他坐電椅。
I had never met him and was entirely reliant on the judgment of our veteran reporter, Ewen MacAskill, who rang to report (in pre-arranged code owing something to Hollywood) that the Guinness is good.
我那時候還沒有見過他，我對他的全部認知都來自於我們的資深記者尤恩•麥卡斯基爾(Ewen MacAskill)的判斷，他和斯諾登會面後，打電話來彙報——學好萊塢電影使用事先商量好的暗號——吉尼斯很棒（譯註：表示斯諾登的消息是真實的）。
I first saw his face about an hour before the rest of the world, when MacAskill filed his video interview to New York.
我第一次看見他的面孔大約比世界上其他人早一個小時——由勞拉•波伊特拉斯(Laura Poitras)拍攝的、麥卡斯基爾和格倫•格林沃爾德(Glenn Greenwald)兩位記者採訪斯諾登的視頻被髮送到了紐約。
Like everyone else there I was struck by his stubbled youth and impressed by his thoughtful articulacy.
就像在場所有其他人一樣，斯諾登的年輕——他蓄着胡茬——讓我震驚，他的思維縝密和能說會道也讓我印象深刻。
Today, at 33, there’s a touch less stubble, and the hair is a smidgen longer.
現在，33歲的斯諾登臉上的胡茬少了一點，頭髮也比那時候長了一點。
He says he moves freely around Moscow, seldom recognised, which is surprising since he has changed little since that first picture of him etched itself on our consciousness.
他說他在莫斯科可以自由地到處走，很少被人認出來，這一點讓人驚訝，因爲從他的第一張照片給我們留下印象以來，他幾乎沒什麼變化。
Reading the laminated room-service menu card, complete with English translations, he is tempted by the spicy chicken curry with rice and chilli sauce. I go for the risotto with white mushrooms and a vinaigrette salad with herring.
看了客房裏配有英文翻譯的塑封菜單後，斯諾登選中了辣味咖喱雞配米飯和辣醬，我選了口蘑燴飯和油醋汁鯡魚沙拉。
Snowden — skinny thin — decides he can’t resist the crab cakes, too.
斯諾登——他非常瘦——覺得蟹餅也讓人無法抗拒。
We telephone the order for the food, with mineral water.
我們打電話點了餐，還要了礦泉水。
He has been unwillingly marooned in Moscow since 2013 when — the subject of a giant manhunt — he was forced to leave Hong Kong.
自2013年遭到大規模搜捕、無奈離開香港以來，他一直不情願地被困在莫斯科。
How’s his Russian coming on? He confirms it’s up to ordering in a restaurant, but is reluctant to elaborate.
現在他的俄語怎麼樣？斯諾登表示他能在餐廳裏用俄語點餐，但他不願意細談這個話題。
All my work’s in English. Everybody I talk to I speak to in English, he says. I sleep in Russia but I live all around the world.
我在工作中都用英語，我和每個人交談都用英語說話，他說，我睡在俄羅斯，但我生活在世界各地。
I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia. That’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.
我和俄羅斯並沒有很多關聯，這是有意的，因爲——這儘管聽起來很瘋狂——我依然計劃着離開。
He lives mainly on Eastern Standard Time and spends most of his waking hours online — but it always has been so.
他的作息基本遵循美國東部標準時間，醒時也多半都在上網，不過我一直這麼過的。
He admits he misses the sense of home represented by America, but technology overcomes most of that divide.
他承認自己想念美國代表的家的感覺，但科技基本上克服了這種分離。
For me, I’m a little bit of an outlier to begin with because, remember, I signed up to go work overseas for the CIA and overseas for the NSA.
就我而言，我本來就有點像外派的工作人員，記得不，我曾簽約爲中央情報局和國家安全局去海外工作。
So it’s really not that much different from the postings that I had for the US.
所以，這與我曾經爲美國駐外工作相比真的沒有太大不同。
The only difference is that I’m still posted overseas and I work for the US but they don’t realise it.
唯一不同的是我依然駐外，依然爲美國工作，只不過美國人民沒認識到罷了。
As anyone who follows him on Twitter knows (he follows just one account: the NSA) he is capable of a very dry wit.
在Twitter上關注了他的人都知道，斯諾登可是個冷幽默高手（他的Twitter只關注了一個賬號：美國國家安全局。）
He has seen a version of the Stone movie on one of the director’s trips to Moscow, during which Snowden says he would talk to Stone’s co-writer, Kieran Fitzgerald, about trying to keep the film a little bit closer to being reality.
有一次斯通來莫斯科時，給斯諾登看了他拍的電影，那時他表示願意和斯通的聯合編劇基蘭•菲茨傑拉德( Kieran Fitzgerald)談談如何讓影片更貼近現實一點。
But, he shrugs, I know it’s a drama, not a documentary. How would he score it out of 10? He avoids a rating.
不過，他聳了聳肩：我知道這是戲，不是紀錄片。
On the policy questions, which I think are the most important thing for the public understanding, it’s as close to real as you can get in a film.
如果滿分十分，他會給幾分呢？斯諾登沒有打分：在政策問題上——我認爲這是公衆要知道的最重要的事情——它已經達到了一部電影所能表現的最真實的地步。
He met Gordon-Levitt in Moscow and thought him an amazing guy . . . we had lunch together, talked for several hours just about everything, our personal lives — what we think about, what we care about.
斯諾登在莫斯科見了戈登-萊維特，他認爲對方是個了不起的傢伙……我們一起吃了午餐，聊了幾個小時，什麼都聊，包括我們的私人生活，我們的想法，我們在意什麼。
At the time I thought it was just a social visit but, after the fact, he told me that he was actually scoping me out, trying to get my mannerisms.
當時我以爲這只是一次社交性的拜訪，但事後他告訴我，他其實是在揣摩我，研究我的言談舉止。
Having interviewed Gordon-Levitt’s Snowden as part of my own cameo in the film, I can vouch for how well he captures the real thing.
我在影片中的客串戲份是採訪戈登-萊維特扮演的斯諾登，我可以打包票地說，他完美地捕捉到了人物真髓。
Snowden was impressed, too: His characterisation of me makes me uncomfortable, with the super-deep gravelly voice, but that’s because you never hear your own voice the way other people do, right?
斯諾登也印象深刻：他扮演的我讓我不大自在，他的嗓音太低沉沙啞，不過這是因爲人們從來沒聽過別人耳中自己的聲音，對吧？
Was he moved by the film, which in flashback revisits the episodes in his life that led to what he calls his tortured decision to engineer the biggest leak of classified documents in history? There’s always going to be something emotional about seeing something that you did retold as a story by other people.
這部片子對他有觸動嗎？影片以倒敘手法再現了他的生活經歷，正是這些經歷導致他作出痛苦決定，從而製造了史上最大的機密文件泄露事件。當你從別人複述的故事中看到自己過往做的事，總會有些動情。
It shows a reflection of how your choices matter to them.
它體現了一種思考，關於你做的選擇對他們產生了怎樣的影響。
Three years later, seeing what we thought was going to be a five-day story still being reported on [makes me think] that I wasn’t crazy.
3年過去，看到我們當初的想法變成一個5天故事，而且仍有媒體報道，讓我覺得自己當初並不是瘋了。
There’s a knock on the door — which would have caused a spasm of paranoid anxiety in the Mira in 2013.
外面傳來敲門聲——這要是在2013年的美麗華酒店，肯定會引起猜疑和焦慮。
Now it’s just room service.
現在只是客房服務罷了。
The floor is so small the waiter balances the tray on the bed and Snowden has to perch his chicken curry on his knee.
房間太小，服務員將托盤搭在牀上，斯諾登只得將咖喱雞米飯放在膝蓋上。
The water is missing.
水沒送上來。
My vinaigrette salad turns out to be cubed beetroot.
我的沙拉原來是切成丁狀的甜菜根。
I avoid the herrings.
我沒吃鯡魚。
Once he nods at the iPhone recording our interview and expands on a point in case someone is listening.
他朝着正在錄製我們採訪現場的iPhone點了一下頭，然後圍繞以防有人在聽這個話題發了一通議論。
The first time I met him — to see how he was surviving in his new circumstances in spring 2014 — my iPhone had displayed a giant red thermometer, a sign of alarming overheating.
2014年春天我第一次見他，看看他在新環境裏過得如何，當時我的iPhone上出現了一個巨大的紅色溫度計，那是過熱預警信號。
Snowden had observed mildly it was because so many different people were trying to listen in.
那時斯諾登溫和地說，這是因爲有太多不同來路的人企圖監聽它。
